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Post by Padres GM (Scott) on Aug 27, 2018 3:26:57 GMT
With teams going more and more to using their arms differently, I’m thinking of changing the scoring from QS to Wins. Unless there is overwhelming support to keep QS, I will change to Wins
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 12:23:36 GMT
Why not have both Wins and Quality Starts as counting stats?
We do agree Quality Starts seems to be going in the same direction as Complete Games.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 18:29:33 GMT
Wins is mostly, a luck stat. Unless you're truly elite. I don't love QS, but it's better than W's, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 20:19:48 GMT
Since El Guapo is truly elite, he would vote for Wins -- and hope for luck. heh
So, again we ask, why not just use both?
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Post by Phillies GM (Chuck) on Aug 27, 2018 20:52:05 GMT
My thought is to take Holds and Saves from two separate categories into one category of Holds+Saves. This would allow for Wins and QSs. Just a thought.
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Post by Padres GM (Scott) on Aug 27, 2018 21:06:14 GMT
My thought is to take Holds and Saves from two separate categories into one category of Holds+Saves. This would allow for Wins and QSs. Just a thought. While I’m not opposed to exploring this, assuming fantrax can accommodate, this would significantly increase the value of middle relievers and set up men. Real life MLB does seem to be heading in the direction this way already. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 1:05:59 GMT
Maybe "over value" set up men?
While the idea sounds interesting, we'd be very skeptical of implementing a saves/holds combo stat. It would be too great a change for us.
We would vote"NO" on combo categories like that.
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Post by Athletics GM (Gaz) on Aug 28, 2018 12:48:51 GMT
As long as whatever we have is in place before we start and is the same all year I'm ok with something like a combined reliever stat. The worst thing is when it gets agreed before a draft then gets changed before the season starts. You draft for one thing which becomes irrelevant.
I'd almost always lean towards voting yes on quite a few ideas that help differentiate from other leagues. It's nice to have quirks. Most of us play in lots of these leagues and it's easy to switch off from one or two if it feels stale compared to others.
In regards to the original poll question here I've voted for wins because I think it helps value relievers more than just a holds stat. It opens up the league to having different ways to compete if a few teams end up hoarding the better starters.
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Post by Padres GM (Scott) on Aug 28, 2018 13:55:04 GMT
As long as whatever we have is in place before we start and is the same all year I'm ok with something like a combined reliever stat. The worst thing is when it gets agreed before a draft then gets changed before the season starts. You draft for one thing which becomes irrelevant. I'd almost always lean towards voting yes on quite a few ideas that help differentiate from other leagues. It's nice to have quirks. Most of us play in lots of these leagues and it's easy to switch off from one or two if it feels stale compared to others. In regards to the original poll question here I've voted for wins because I think it helps value relievers more than just a holds stat. It opens up the league to having different ways to compete if a few teams end up hoarding the better starters. Agree with you on not making a change after the draft. Any changes after the draft that materially change player values would not be applied to the current season, as is customary in most these leagues to give time for adjustments. The idea is to hopefully not have to consider major value changes later on, though invariably they sometimes rear their ugly head when loopholes get exploited. For now, I posted this just to get a sense of whether there was major opposition to wins over QS. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 14:45:36 GMT
My thought is to take Holds and Saves from two separate categories into one category of Holds+Saves. This would allow for Wins and QSs. Just a thought. I like it, personally. In the end, all this really does is... - De-Value the Save, if only a little. Warranted in my opinion because it's so damn hard to predict/forecast the position. CL, especially in ROTO have become over valued. If you don't have a great one, it's almost worth punting the position
- All Elite RP's created equal, with still slight edge to Elite CL only still, due to scarcity of position + known job security - If people want to keep W's, this allows us to have a W/QS + H/S
All that said...Choosing QS over W's and keeping everything as is is probably the easiest. I'd be curious to know, if effectively adding a pitching category + combining 2 categories if we're de-valuing pitching a little bit. |
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Post by Braves GM (Matt P) on Aug 28, 2018 15:47:51 GMT
Elite RP can get high numbers too. Taylor Rogers (the Fernando Rodney of holds guys) had 30 holds last year, and Archie Bradley has 30 already this year. If you want know how your experiments on categories work on player evaluation, try the auction calculator on Fangraphs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 15:58:41 GMT
From our perspective, adding a category works better than combining two. If you like Wins, fine; just add it to Quality Starts. We think Saves is a separate category and has its own place in the scheme of putting together a pitching roster. We see adding Quality Starts to Wins works best. Of course, that could entail adding another hitting stat.
As does keeping both Saves AND Holds allows each owner to emphasize/tailor the his roster according to what suits him. So if we did them all, it would be 4 separate categories -- and GMs would have a variety of choices to make as they put together rosters.
We are now going to go to the top of the page and vote for Wins -- though we do prefer keeping all four stat categories.
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Post by Red Sox (Matthew) on Aug 28, 2018 16:59:07 GMT
Wins over QS for me. I feel like the Rays way of doing things is going to spread more and more over the coming years, with openers making way too much sense to go the way of the dodo bird, coupled with traditional starters pitching fewer innings. Also, like that it adds value to RPs.
Hate the idea of combining RP stats, or adding additional categories. 6x6 roto, not 6x7.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 17:08:49 GMT
For those in favor of Wins...I'm curious your reasoning.
With SP's going shorter and shorter, bullpen usage increasing. W's, which has become mostly a luck stat, is even more so a terrible way to gauge value in a player. For even some of your Elite SP's, take DeGrom for instance, there's no advantage. It's a single category for arguably the best SP in 2018 (and for many), that is serving very little purpose. He's not the only great SP this happens to every year, either. My point, QS, though not perfect are a better way to judge one's performance than W's.
It boils down to this...target SP's on good teams or hope you get lucky.
- J. Lester is 10th in the Majors in Wins. He has the 10th worst FIP in baseball. He's a bad SP, rewarded because of luck.
- L. Giolito has 10 Wins. The same as James Paxton. 2 Fewer than G. Cole who's been a Top 5 SP all season (and on a great team - Bad Luck). L. Giolito, has arguably been the worst SP in baseball. Counting W's, gives him value he doesn't deserve.
- J. Chacin has 13 Wins. He is 16th in the Majors in Wins. Chachin has a 4.01 FIP which means, he's been an average SP. Chacin has 1 more win than C. Sale. C. Sale, has been the #1 or #2 for the entire season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 17:13:24 GMT
My larger point...
Why are we rewarding guys like J. Lester, L. Giolito and J. Chachin?
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